The question what is tempering.. I could not find a correct answer as it does not have to necessarilly lower the steels macro hardness, perhaps martensite
will soften.. Even its just a part of the I rather chosed a ht option 🙂
Creating a generic definition of tempering is not as easy as it sounds. I checked a couple sources (not the dictionary) for definitions and all mentioned softening so I went in that direction.
Yep. I think I understand why you have picked that.
But when some 100C low temper or secondary hardening
tempers at peak strength for some materials came to my mind
I had to raise a factual objection 🙂 But no problem 🙂
Good quiz, thanks Dr. and I am surprised I hit the knife steel nerd mark, since I am a networking engineer, and most of my experience is not steel related, so I guess lately I have been spending more time in the knife community channels, and frankly metallurgy I find the most fascinating topic of all the pieces involved.
In the question about secondary hardening my initial selection was tempering at higher temperatures, but I changed my mind because I think of tempering as a final cook to soften and toughen at a lower temp.
Like a year ago I got a custom O1 fixed blade from a local guy, since its O1 I decided to baton a 2 by 2 of pine wood which ended breaking the tip when heating a knot. I called him and he told this was because it was set for EDC, not for bushcrafting. My guess is that it was not tempered long enough after the quench. I started to reprofile it by hand on a coarse whetstone and sand paper by hand, but haven’t found the time to reach a point I feel comfortable with, just thinking out loud.
Anyway, Congratulations Dr. its a great site with very useful info and tips to get started for un non steel people, but would like to be! 🙂
Well Gerardo a bush crafting knife made with 14C28N is a really good choice as I have a 3.625 long blade folder made of it and it has a 15 degree edge that doesn’t chip nor roll over for $44 with shipping included. It is a “high end” budget steel, but you can find it in bush craft knives and it is pretty stainless as well and it holds an edge well. It is Larrin’s top choice for a budget steel. If you’re on a budget I wouldn’t recommend any other steel, but if price isn’t as much of a deal then 4V or 3V knives are really tough and hold an excellent edge. Now Condor makes some cheaper BC knives in 5160 and 1075 that are really tough, but only comes around 54 to 56 hard. Best bet is to find a decent 14C28N unless you need to go really budget the the 5160 or 8670, but no higher than .80% carbon and stay away from D2 Bushcraft unless they lowered the hardness down. Try Perry Knife Works as they’re having a sale right now or Smokey Mtn. Knife Works as well. AEBL or Sandvik 13C something or another are same steels, you don’t see AEBL, but you do see the Sandvik stainless.
Thank you Jimmie for sharing your experience and thoughts, this are ver y good tips to consider. Best regards!
This is an incorrect statement. Bushcrafting has a very wide array of activities from carving a spoon to batoning through thick logs. To simply say o1 (a steel which has been used in the bush for many years successfully) is not suited for bushcraft in general could not be farther from the truth. You dont even know the hardness of said o1 blade…O1 steel at lower hardness can certainly be adequate for even pretty aggressive batoning,
I may be wrong, but it seems like you are parroting what you read on this website and not critically thinking about what you are actually saying.
First knife I ever made from scratch was O1 heat treated in a charcoal forge in 1992. I was also given the extra duty of being a heat treater at my job in a machine shop for almost ten years. Excuse me if I upset you. If you tell me you’re going to baton with your knife I am not going to temper O1 down from HRC 60-62 as at 54 hardness it doesn’t hold an edge well and at 60+ it will be prone to breaking. Batoning is what I see ‘bushcrafters’ do quite often in videos hence why I said O1 isn’t tough enough and why I would use a different steel. But if you want a carbon steel I would likely use either S5 at Rc60 and 80 ft. lbs. of toughness or use 52100 at 60-61Rc as well, but closer to 20 ft. lbs.
I have never split a small log with my knife and I think if one is planning to do that a hatchet would serve a lot better. I have one Hudson Bay ax made from S5 leftover from when I had access to a forge. S5 and S7 are considerably tougher than Z-Tuff, but S7 cannot get as hard as S5. At Rc 59 S5 is at 120 ft. lbs. of toughness, but taking it to 60 hard reduced its toughness by 40 ft. lbs. and if I took it to 62 toughness would drop from 80 down to 20 or less.
Also if you think I’m parroting Larrin ask him if I didn’t email him asking why he only held O1 at 1475 for ten minutes instead of 15 minutes like I was taught by Hinderliter Heat Treat Company in 2003. That is O1 alloy that has .20% vanadium in it to help restrict grain growth. I never use Latrobe’s O1 that doesn’t contain the vanadium, but Larrin does use an O1 without vanadium in his tests and note its toughness numbers. O1 isn’t very tough like a lot of steels I wouldn’t use unless I made them extra thick like 3/16ths. I really don’t understand this fad in recent years making short knives extra thick.
Hi Jimmie,
Its some late for a reply, but I liked to try out my self prior any statement.
A) I can confirm, that a flat saber grind knife (12cm/3cm/.32cm) with a 25 degree secondary bevel in O1 precisely according Larrins recommendation can break while excessive batoning. It was a great carver and poor batoner anyway.
B) Same size knife, same processing, same lot but as scandi grind, easily manages all grim batoning and cuts any wood in push cut extremely well.
I guess, 90 percent is about the correct geometry for its purpose and adequate heat treatment and a user, aware of limits.
You are welcome Gerardo;
Sandvik 13C26 is the same steel as AEBL so if you see it in a bush craft knife it is tough as well as able to be at a high hardness if any commercial knifemaker would do it. Commercially made knives are not heat treated to be at the best hardness, I have an S30V knife that is only 59 hard instead of 61-62, really bogus and I gave a blistering review of it too. 13C26 is the same way, they could easily HT to 62 hardness and it is still tough. It is why I started making my own knives as I couldn’t buy a decent edge holding knife at a reasonable price. Hope you find what you’re looking for.
Bark River knives makes a 3V bush craft knife, but you’re right it is over $200 if you can find it. Mora knives uses Sandvik stainless 12C27 or 19C27 I believe. Double check that. Sandvik 13C26 was developed as a razor blade steel and they found it make4s good knives as well. Here is an in stock Benchmade Leuku Bushcraft knife in 3V for $140.25 at Knife Center. There’s a nice video that goes with it, the .140 thick blade with 3V it doesn’t need to be thicker. If I still backpacked I’d snatch this knife up immediately for that price. https://www.knifecenter.com/item/BM202/benchmade-leuku-fixed-blade-bushcraft-knife-cpm-3v-satin-drop-point-ranger-green-santoprene-handles-leather-sheath
Ha, I got 11 out of 11 and I’m not a steel nerd at all. I’d say I’m a nerd and I guess that was good enough, since it let me guess a few answers that turned out to be right. I read a few of Dr. Verhoeven’s articles years ago and that helped, but that was out of general nerdery rather than really being a steel nerd. Anyway this is a great site I’m learning a lot.
By concept, I disagree with your answer of what makes a steel stainless. You say Cr, I said a protective coating. Cr can form a protective coating, chromium oxide, Cr2O3, but work has been done with other additions, like Cu and Si, to make a protective coating. I would have to look through a bunch of Pourbaix diagrams or spend a few hours with Factsage making potential/pH diagrams but depending on the environment you are trying to protect from, Cr is not the only answer to what makes a steel stainless.
Hi Larrin,
The question what is tempering.. I could not find a correct answer as it does not have to necessarilly lower the steels macro hardness, perhaps martensite
will soften.. Even its just a part of the I rather chosed a ht option 🙂
Creating a generic definition of tempering is not as easy as it sounds. I checked a couple sources (not the dictionary) for definitions and all mentioned softening so I went in that direction.
Yep. I think I understand why you have picked that.
But when some 100C low temper or secondary hardening
tempers at peak strength for some materials came to my mind
I had to raise a factual objection 🙂 But no problem 🙂
I had an interest in most of the categories for the interest question
Good quiz, thanks Dr. and I am surprised I hit the knife steel nerd mark, since I am a networking engineer, and most of my experience is not steel related, so I guess lately I have been spending more time in the knife community channels, and frankly metallurgy I find the most fascinating topic of all the pieces involved.
In the question about secondary hardening my initial selection was tempering at higher temperatures, but I changed my mind because I think of tempering as a final cook to soften and toughen at a lower temp.
Like a year ago I got a custom O1 fixed blade from a local guy, since its O1 I decided to baton a 2 by 2 of pine wood which ended breaking the tip when heating a knot. I called him and he told this was because it was set for EDC, not for bushcrafting. My guess is that it was not tempered long enough after the quench. I started to reprofile it by hand on a coarse whetstone and sand paper by hand, but haven’t found the time to reach a point I feel comfortable with, just thinking out loud.
Anyway, Congratulations Dr. its a great site with very useful info and tips to get started for un non steel people, but would like to be! 🙂
O1 is not tough enough for bush crafting.
What budgets and premium steels would be most adequate for bushcrafitng?
Well Gerardo a bush crafting knife made with 14C28N is a really good choice as I have a 3.625 long blade folder made of it and it has a 15 degree edge that doesn’t chip nor roll over for $44 with shipping included. It is a “high end” budget steel, but you can find it in bush craft knives and it is pretty stainless as well and it holds an edge well. It is Larrin’s top choice for a budget steel. If you’re on a budget I wouldn’t recommend any other steel, but if price isn’t as much of a deal then 4V or 3V knives are really tough and hold an excellent edge. Now Condor makes some cheaper BC knives in 5160 and 1075 that are really tough, but only comes around 54 to 56 hard. Best bet is to find a decent 14C28N unless you need to go really budget the the 5160 or 8670, but no higher than .80% carbon and stay away from D2 Bushcraft unless they lowered the hardness down. Try Perry Knife Works as they’re having a sale right now or Smokey Mtn. Knife Works as well. AEBL or Sandvik 13C something or another are same steels, you don’t see AEBL, but you do see the Sandvik stainless.
Thank you Jimmie for sharing your experience and thoughts, this are ver y good tips to consider. Best regards!
This is an incorrect statement. Bushcrafting has a very wide array of activities from carving a spoon to batoning through thick logs. To simply say o1 (a steel which has been used in the bush for many years successfully) is not suited for bushcraft in general could not be farther from the truth. You dont even know the hardness of said o1 blade…O1 steel at lower hardness can certainly be adequate for even pretty aggressive batoning,
I may be wrong, but it seems like you are parroting what you read on this website and not critically thinking about what you are actually saying.
First knife I ever made from scratch was O1 heat treated in a charcoal forge in 1992. I was also given the extra duty of being a heat treater at my job in a machine shop for almost ten years. Excuse me if I upset you. If you tell me you’re going to baton with your knife I am not going to temper O1 down from HRC 60-62 as at 54 hardness it doesn’t hold an edge well and at 60+ it will be prone to breaking. Batoning is what I see ‘bushcrafters’ do quite often in videos hence why I said O1 isn’t tough enough and why I would use a different steel. But if you want a carbon steel I would likely use either S5 at Rc60 and 80 ft. lbs. of toughness or use 52100 at 60-61Rc as well, but closer to 20 ft. lbs.
I have never split a small log with my knife and I think if one is planning to do that a hatchet would serve a lot better. I have one Hudson Bay ax made from S5 leftover from when I had access to a forge. S5 and S7 are considerably tougher than Z-Tuff, but S7 cannot get as hard as S5. At Rc 59 S5 is at 120 ft. lbs. of toughness, but taking it to 60 hard reduced its toughness by 40 ft. lbs. and if I took it to 62 toughness would drop from 80 down to 20 or less.
Also if you think I’m parroting Larrin ask him if I didn’t email him asking why he only held O1 at 1475 for ten minutes instead of 15 minutes like I was taught by Hinderliter Heat Treat Company in 2003. That is O1 alloy that has .20% vanadium in it to help restrict grain growth. I never use Latrobe’s O1 that doesn’t contain the vanadium, but Larrin does use an O1 without vanadium in his tests and note its toughness numbers. O1 isn’t very tough like a lot of steels I wouldn’t use unless I made them extra thick like 3/16ths. I really don’t understand this fad in recent years making short knives extra thick.
Hi Jimmie,
Its some late for a reply, but I liked to try out my self prior any statement.
A) I can confirm, that a flat saber grind knife (12cm/3cm/.32cm) with a 25 degree secondary bevel in O1 precisely according Larrins recommendation can break while excessive batoning. It was a great carver and poor batoner anyway.
B) Same size knife, same processing, same lot but as scandi grind, easily manages all grim batoning and cuts any wood in push cut extremely well.
I guess, 90 percent is about the correct geometry for its purpose and adequate heat treatment and a user, aware of limits.
You are welcome Gerardo;
Sandvik 13C26 is the same steel as AEBL so if you see it in a bush craft knife it is tough as well as able to be at a high hardness if any commercial knifemaker would do it. Commercially made knives are not heat treated to be at the best hardness, I have an S30V knife that is only 59 hard instead of 61-62, really bogus and I gave a blistering review of it too. 13C26 is the same way, they could easily HT to 62 hardness and it is still tough. It is why I started making my own knives as I couldn’t buy a decent edge holding knife at a reasonable price. Hope you find what you’re looking for.
Hi Jimmie , is that Mora’s Sandvik?
On the other, what 3V/4V knife would you recommend? Generally speaking they tend to be pretty but scarce and pricey.
Thanks and regards
G
Bark River knives makes a 3V bush craft knife, but you’re right it is over $200 if you can find it. Mora knives uses Sandvik stainless 12C27 or 19C27 I believe. Double check that. Sandvik 13C26 was developed as a razor blade steel and they found it make4s good knives as well. Here is an in stock Benchmade Leuku Bushcraft knife in 3V for $140.25 at Knife Center. There’s a nice video that goes with it, the .140 thick blade with 3V it doesn’t need to be thicker. If I still backpacked I’d snatch this knife up immediately for that price.
https://www.knifecenter.com/item/BM202/benchmade-leuku-fixed-blade-bushcraft-knife-cpm-3v-satin-drop-point-ranger-green-santoprene-handles-leather-sheath
Ha, I got 11 out of 11 and I’m not a steel nerd at all. I’d say I’m a nerd and I guess that was good enough, since it let me guess a few answers that turned out to be right. I read a few of Dr. Verhoeven’s articles years ago and that helped, but that was out of general nerdery rather than really being a steel nerd. Anyway this is a great site I’m learning a lot.
By concept, I disagree with your answer of what makes a steel stainless. You say Cr, I said a protective coating. Cr can form a protective coating, chromium oxide, Cr2O3, but work has been done with other additions, like Cu and Si, to make a protective coating. I would have to look through a bunch of Pourbaix diagrams or spend a few hours with Factsage making potential/pH diagrams but depending on the environment you are trying to protect from, Cr is not the only answer to what makes a steel stainless.